he argument is made by people comparing learning something new to learning something they already know well.. To compare we really need to look at sites that are well developed on both sites. Graphics are easier in CSS3, thus making it easy to make the site appealing. If you were to point one out to me Id either fix it or explain why it might not be working for you and probably even help you make it work. With a table-based layout the only way this would be possible would be to go into every page of your site and change the underlying structure. Tutorials, references, and examples are constantly reviewed to avoid errors, but we cannot warrant full correctness of all content. Itll probably be a week or two before I have the time to really look, but if you email me the code I will look. I cant tell any discernable speed difference between a table layout and a CSS layouts load time. So does laying out a site with tables. Having used both its very obvious to me that the div based approach is the much better way to go. The issue though was how I was using css and not css itself. And if I gave offense at all as well I also apologize. I too started out doing HTML with tables, and as soon as I saw the CSS light, Ive never been able to see it any other way. My guess as to why they didnt learn it as well as you is because its actually not intuitive as you say, especially when trying to implement a grid shape with 3 independent blocks. A paragraph? Even thought theres more potential for errors, it doesnt mean there will be errors. Web designers needs to use few lines of programming for every page improving site speed. When people are having trouble getting a css layout to look the same across browsers its usually more to do with the skills of the designer than with css itself. Not doing something because it takes time to learn is laziness. Menu. I would never develop the site that way, but I know there are people who can. Thats not an argument for tables in general, but it is an argument for me to continue to use tables for my small business clients who wont pay a lot for a web site, and will not get enough traffic to benefit from div based techniques. Yes, but you can get it done just as quickly with css. How to override the CSS properties of a class using another CSS class ? With divs its just guessing, maybe this will work. John Taylor Ive been doing web design since the beginning of the internet as a hobby and now professionally and I like a combination of both worlds. And server space/bandwidth doesnt seem to be an issue anymore either. Did you read the post? I avoid tables and table-cell in almost all layouts to avoid ridicule, but deep down I truly believe that anything else is convoluted and meant to create more jobs for web developers. As for formatting and style, you should use a clear and descriptive title that reflects the main topic and keywords of your paper. Then, I can see how they styled it in the source code. How to check which tab is active using Material UI ? Believe me, Im not making the argument for convoluted nested tables with colspan settings, etc, nor am I arguing against semantically correct documents. It might not be that one line of css is off, but more that the way that part of the page is structured in general could be done differently. Four-fifths of the way through an assessable project isnt the best time to have to redo a table-based layout. Everything should be able to reflow the way you want with css. If I tired to reply to your comment in Spanish it would take me hours, even days, to put together a few coherent sentences. .Net has master pages and user controls which are ideal for repeating blocks of code. When I first started using css for layout I couldnt always get things to look the same, but most of it was me. Search engines are interested in your content, not your code.. What the css vs tables debate is really about is whether or not to structure a web page with tables or divs. Like I said the debate the wont die. IMO, performance claims made in the absence of benchmark testing are the definition of hype. 2) Faster Load Times Because of Lighter Code I remember load times being a major issue when I first got started but it doesnt seem to be the case anymore with so few people on dialup. I really like using CSS for formatting text, lists, positioning, etc. In my career I have worked with two types of people, fanatics and realists. When you say things like hand coding is a pain it suggests you havent taken the time to learn css well. Not something you need for a two column layout of course. The tool emits old school attribute heavy html tables but I wrote a little javascript parser that seperates things out into clean html and css. How does it suggest we should use tables? Heavy image use and Flash still seem to be the biggest factors in speed. I really like your saying Not doing something because it takes time to learn is laziness. I dont agree with their reasoning, but it is there. Ive offered tutorials on the basic layout and Ive offered tutorials on things that can go inside that layout, but never all the code for an entire site. Your probably right about round pegs and square holes, and I am sorry if you took offence, but the fact that countless people have these issues with css must indicate a lack of continuety with css. I hear you Bill. It looks promising and hopefully will be the way forward from now on, getting rid of both the ugly table and div mess once and for all Id be interested to know what you think of it. John all 3 of the sites you list can definitely be developed using css for the layout instead of tables. @Dave I think were getting squished with the replies to each other so Im starting a new comment. How is that more maintainable? But clearly there are many people who support using tables. I think it gets an unfair rap sometimes. The one that continues using tables is because it does not dominate or does not know CSS. There are SOME layouts that to use entirely CSS requires an inordinate amount of extremely messy code to represent. If I had stopped my study on the first day the table would have won by an equally small margin. I find that unfortunate, as someone who caught the tail end of the table era I find it much more difficult to maintain a website which uses tables (because of my own lack of experience with tables I suppose) than to administer a website which uses a CSS layout. If you arent its not because of the language. I look forward to the day when a page renders the same way in all browsers for specific CSS statements. If youre asking about the former then Id say go ahead and use a table when youre presenting data in columns and rows. After-all the 3 column layout with equal height is referred to as the holy-grail in css, enough said! One of the debates that never seems to go away in the web development community is that of css vs tables and which is better to use for the layout of your site. of CSS vs tables when it is clear that one can can use CSS techniques with respect to tables as well as divs? To me, framing the debate this way is yet another attempt to make a distinction If there is a specific tutorial that isnt working for you just let me know which one and Ill be happy to take a look to see if there are any errors. Let me also say that if you prefer to develop sites with a table-based layout, good for you. This debate has been going on for years. Now I barely have to test my layouts in multiple browsers because Ive learned how to keep them consistent across browsers. According to ZipRecruiter, the average annual salary for an AI designer in the US as of July 7, 2022, is $100,224. Developers need to realize that its okay to use tables when you have to display data and you need to use divs when you have to create layouts. You make the assumption that because it takes you 5 hours to develop a layout in css that its the same for other people. No one is going to stop you. I also think it looks promising. The person usually chose a complicated path to solving the problem when a much simpler path existed. I developed a few personal websites back in 1999 and used tables throughout them all. Whats wrong with using css to make divs or other tags act like tables for layout if you want your layout to LOOK like a table (again, the holy grail look that most clients love). Here is a link to an article with more detail. Feel free to email me if you want. If you need a table that should span the entire screen (full-width), add width: 100% to the It doesnt lead to the need for more tags and it doesnt require workarounds. Sure. You make good points. It has nothing to do with other tools. Proving that the css layout loads 10ms faster (20ms when I just ran the test on your site) doesnt exactly endorse using tables instead? For some reason this is frowned upon as well. You said I made overhyped performance claims, which I didnt. That would be a debate between using css or html attributes for presentation. I have used some CSS to style the text, but not the design. I think many people who spent the time learning how hold on to that knowledge instead of trying to learn the css way and in holding on to the known create arguments to defend their use of tables. Ive looked at the page you linked to before and have it bookmarked. Divs can work independently from each other. 4. Im not suggesting you should never use an html table anywhere. I never said I prefur tables. The limiting factors isnt the language, its my ability to use the language. I have designed the following sample homepage for a client: Its huge. You can do that regardless of how you structure your layout. Browser compatibility (some styles sheet are supported and some are not). My money will be on the person using divs. However, laying out an entire web page in css is what I want to learn (using divs) and I cant seem to find an online tutorial specifically for that. Eventually it works, but at what cost? In my opinion, combining table layout with CSS works great. With browsers having different defaults paddings, etc. If you read the post youll see I never once said you couldnt use tables. Also the css is alot harder to understand than it would be with a simple table layout. Why does anyone really care how something is put together? Using display: table-cell would work fine now that everyone uses IE8 or over, but the floating div folks insist on emulating a grid with floating blocks anyway. So, its important to ensure faster speed. The advantages with using divs are essentially counter to the problems with tables described above. Right or wrong, I LOVE spending most of my time designing. Tables to me make for a more complicated structure that often create even more problems. A div is its own entity. LOL, Im not advocating tables b/c they are infintesimally slower then divs. Do I have to have a separate div for each line?

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