It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire. The Valley of Hinnom, named Gehenna in Greek, lies just outside the city of Jerusalem. Why is there this belief that there is no redemption? Even if I couldn't convince you, I am glad that you got something out of it. It was Jesus who said, "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matt 25:46). The thing is, that as the "aion" during which the punishment takes place is coming to an end,DEATH WILL BE SWALLOWED UP BY LIFE! Jude is not using Sodom and Gommorah as examples of those who WILL be punished, the "suffering of eternal fire" in that verse is in the PRESENT TENSE. Eventually, part of Gei Ben Hinnom became a dump, with constant day and night burning of trash fires emitting a sulfurous stench. If this is supposed to be a literal story about the suffering of an eternal "hell", there would be no need to explain the gulf as being necessary to prevent people from going from Abraham's bosom to the other side where there is torment. If it is Isaiah, then you cannot take this prophet to invalidate what Christ himself taught. He does not say say that Sodom underwent "punishment of eternal fire" but that Sodom is an example for those that will. One is kolasin, the other timoria. So at that point there will be no more "aionian" life, it will be the same life as was lived in the "aion", but now it will continue outside of time. I find it interesting that people use the ideas they have been taught about 'hell' being eternal and transfer that to a symbolic statement that Jesus made about worms and fire. And he mentions those who would go from where he himself was to the other side where the torment was FIRST. And as you know from experience, a dump without flies is a dump without garbage. Fears becalmed. Dig down into and youll find evidence if garbage, followed by a ruined temple and burnt child sacrifices. The 'flesh' is also the context of what Isaiah 66:24 is dealing with. God refers to it as the "valley of slaughter" in Jeremiah 7:31 and in Jeremiah 19:2-6, a place of ruin and disaster.. Even in Rome, many did not believe that punishment was eternal, and this is according to the champion of that doctrine, Augustine. Well before the time of Jesus, the valley was also used as a refuse heap. One of the strange things about all of the talk about whether punishment is eternal or not is the fact that if the Lord had wanted to communicate the idea that punishment would be eternal, there are several ways to do this in Greek and make it crystal clear. I went to a website and read the list of anathemas directed against his teachings and found out that he goes farther than the final restoration of all of mankind and goes as far as saying the devil would one day be repentant and saved. As a rubbish dump, Gehenna was a place where fire burned constantly and where worms feasted on the garbage, and these images were transferred to the never-ending punishment of the rebellious. But of course, some know-it-all flippig through pages will know it better! But when the burning occured in such a valley, it left "dead bodies" for which the worms feasted on after the fire has destroyed them. Though only for a while, but of course his being rejected is not related to any universalist teaching (if he held such, which is not undisputed), which were not the issue in 381. It can't. I am disturbed by the anger and name-calling of the resident I am sure he will give the usual excuses. Finally, you are also mistaken about time and the eternal life. You are simply ignoring these. Mark 9:47 / Jeremiah 32:35. The chastisement is in reference to the Second Death, which can't be eternal if we are to take any of the passages about death itself being destroyed literally. Two different thoughts on the Matthew verse. So just imagine the hundreds of thousands of squirmy, wormy maggots living there, eating the rotting refuse. That wouldn't happen until the 6th century. http://www.afterlife.co.nz/2012/featured-article/tracing-the-road-to-gehenna/ An article looking at Gehenna in the OT and why Jesus may have chosen to use this word. There is no biblical support for this, neither is there any literary sources or archaeological data from the intertestamental or rabbinic periods to suggest this. It might have been just as well to not press it. He is talking about things that detrimental to us, if you want to say so, "the flesh". Specifically, Bailey states: The soul that sinneth it shall DIE, not be given eternal life to burn forever and ever and ever. Gehenna, also called Gehinnom, abode of the damned in the afterlife in Jewish and Christian eschatology (the doctrine of last things). "For your sister Sodom was not a byword in your mouth in the days of your pride, "before your wickedness was uncovered. One question to ask about the parable of the rich man and Lazarus Why the need for a gulf to keep those in Abraham's bosom from going to the other side where there was torment? There were some that believed in such things but they all went into trouble with it. Your idea about "universal salvation" among church fathers is wrongheaded. Scholars have long claimed that Gehenna was a garbage dump where fires were burned. Though the channels were probably used to drain rainwater from the towns, people also used them to dump human waste, garbage, and debris. Located at the midpoint of the Lower Planes, it was a plane of evil balanced between Law and Chaos. Second, the whole passage is disproportionate that is the point: that Christ rejects a minimal, just-barely-pass morality but rather sets a very high standard to his followers. Then he quotes Peter Head, G. R. Beasley-Murray, and Lloyd Bailey in tracing the origin of this notion to Rabbi David Kimchi in AD 1200. No, it means the valley pictured is no longer a steep ravine because it became a landfill, and today is a city park. Jesus used it as an illustration of the final judgment of the wicked. There is no mention in the tons upon tons of writings we have from Church Fathers, Christian and Jewish writers, or even secular writers for that matter. "You have paid for your lewdness and your abominations, says the Lord. Is that decree retroactive? Todd, capital punishment also qualifies as eternal punishment. "Why the need for a gulf to keep those in Abraham's bosom from going to the other side where there was torment?". The wonderful promise that is "You lot will experience everlasting happiness while the rest of the world suffers unimaginable torment for eternity"? In Luke 16:26 Abraham explains why he can't send Lazarus to the rich man with a few drops of water. "In any case, Gregory Naziznen was allowed to preside over that council.". First, you still seem to think you are in a position to lecture Christ on how to conduct his affairs. It is a deep and narrow ravine on the South West side of Jerusalem - first mentioned in Joshua 15:8 and in 18:16 where it says that the boundary line between the tribes of Judah . Jude 1:7 "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the VENGEANCE OF ETERNAL FIRE. Rome? Case in point, Jude 1:7 it says that Sodom and Gomorrah served as example of those who will suffer the punishment of "eternal fire". The books of Kings and Chronicles tell us that a wealthy family named "Hinnom" owned a garden near Jerusalem which first King Ahaz, and then even more audaciously, King Manasseh turned into a place for burning children as a sacrifice to the god Molech. The idea is that the Valley of Hinnon laid just south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls,and that all the refuse and waste from Jerusalem was burned there, and it was pretty much the most disgusting and horrifying place on earth. Wild animals fought over scraps of food along the edges of the heap. I also don't think we will be taking field trips out to look at burning and worm eaten bodies in eternity. I just got done reading Rob Bell's new book, and he relies heavily on this garbage myth as evidence that Jesus' teachings on hell are metaphorical. 20The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased,grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (v.23), "Who is it that is going to go out of the city and look at the worm-eaten, burning bodies?". The name Sha'ar Ha'ashpot appears in the Book of Nehemiah 3:13-14. It will not end, it will just no longer pertain to an 'aion' or time period. You are right about Origen's apocatastasis getting him in trouble. It is translated "hell" every time. Why should it end? Theres nothing before that. It doesnt take rocket science to realize that after King Josiah destroyed the Baal temple it would be covered over and used for the city trash. All in all it points to a figurative description rather than a literal. Why were heretics (if you believe that universal salvation is heresy)allowed to do this? Dead animals and bodies of executed criminals would be put there along with all trash. Those who WOULD. Gehenna is the Jewish version of the "punishing afterlife" and the word refers to a valley just to the west side of the city of Jerusalem. In Biblical times, this place was occupied by Western Semitic pagans people who worshiped deities different from YHWH, such as Molech. OR look at a verse like this and at least rethink the idea that worms die and fires are quenched . In Israel's past, it was used as a place of child sacrifice. Hell, Gehenna the garbage dump. Their meaning cannot be derived from the "object" (which means you assumption that salvation can be eternal but punishment cannot) but from the context and the context in the passage referred above is a parallel structure. THE LAST ENEMY TO BE DESTROYED IS DEATH! Why consider them 'saints'? Consider this myth to be thoroughly debunked. From the reign of Josiah onward, it was used as a garbage dump where the fires burned the refuse continuously. Matt. He must be alive. That's why Jerome translated it aeternam in Latin as well, because he knew what was implied by the Greek. But just as soon as Josiah died, the Jews returned to Tophet. What does a 2000-year-old garbage dump have to do with us, in modern America? "Gehenna" was a very concrete location in Jesus' time. What early church fathers "got into trouble" with universal salvation? I believe you need to be alive to feel the effects of punishment. The Valley of Hinnom ( Hebrew: , romanized : G en-Hnnm, lit. In Jesus' day, it was once again the city's garbage dump, where a fire was always burning to consume anything thrown on the pile ( Mark 9:43-48 ). The pictures on this website are copyrighted and may be used only with permission. And just like all garbage dumps, there were worms. Hell is the place of the future punishment called "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". We are not all doomed as so many believe. Will those who survive not be able to believe that they are really safe until they go out and look at the corpses of those who persecuted them and cast them out? Check out Matt 25:46. For some reason this comment got swallowed up yesterday: "You are right about Origen's apocatastasis getting him in trouble. Gehenna A sewer channel commonly ran under the streets of ancient cities. The valley was the scene of human sacrifices, burned in the worship of Moloch (2 Kings 16:3 and 21:6), which accounts for the prophecy of Jeremiah that it would be called the Valley of Slaughter under judgment of God (Jer. You clearly havened thought the whole matter through and would trade in salvation for 20th century sensibilities. No council ever decreed whether someone was a "Christian". 66:24) and later with a place of judgment by fire without any special connection to Jerusalem (see, for example, 1 Enoch 27:1ff., 54:1ff., 63:3-4, and 90:26ff) (Jesus and the Kingdom of God, 376-77). I haven't memorised all the conciliar canons and anathemata but I think neither have you. I thought the Passover lambs were all sacrificed on the Temple Mount. "You talk of the teaching of the "church" from the earliest days. I find the scriptures remarkable, and you, sir, have nailed these difficult questions to the cross itself. Gehenna as a Garbage Dump? Marcellus was important at Nicea (325) and still condemned a heretic later, with even one line in the Creed directed against him. It is one of a number of alignment-based Outer Planes that form part of the standard Dungeons & Dragons ( D&D ) cosmology, used in the Planescape , Greyhawk , and some editions of . Should a Complementarian Speak with Lady Preachers? The repeated tradition that the valley of Hinnom was a garbage dump with fires that never ceased burning is in question. It traveled through the city gate and emptied into a nearby valley. Blot them out of existence? For now, just notice the term as . Jeremiah is explicit that such occurred here: Jeremiah 7:3132 (ESV) And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind. Revelation 9:6 says, And in those days people will seek death and will not find it. It is retributive and vindictive. Paul turned a Christian over to satan for the DESTRUCTION OF THE FLESH. He got into trouble with a lot of people over many things, but one area of his teaching was never assailed by any church council and that was his teaching on universal salvation.". This message has a warning for everyone today, but especially Christian leaders. Gehenna was not a dump outside Jerusalem. He does not tell us where he got that information from and that is all we hear of it. It is amazing how putting on the legalistic "glasses" that came into the church from the Latin converts can blind people to verses that out to stop them in their tracks and make them wonder "What is going on here?". According to the Jewish scholar David Kimhi (c. 1160-c. 1235 C.E. In the lower part of the Hinnom Valley and Kidron Valley, the city dumped its waste and burned its trash. Rate: Ohio Serpent Mound in the News What the text clearly says is that Sodom serves as an example linked to those suffering in eternal fire. So you don't want to "blot them out", you want to "reconcile all" but again this is just utter disrespect to human beings and their free will, which in turn is a denial of the opportunity to love. The rest of the world will not "suffers unimaginable torment for eternity" the world will be with God, whose judgement is just, even in regard to the damned. This article is more additional proof against the doctrine of eternal torment. You however are reading things into the words "aion" and "aionian". Because talking about God is nothing more than information for the unknowing? In Mark 9 is Jesus taking a literal prophecy in Isaiah and using it as a parable of something "eternal"? In any case, Gregory Naziznen was allowed to preside over that council. If you are a leader, want to be a leader, or can spell the word leader, this message is for you. He is the creator that loves his creation so much that he gave his only Son who was the only sacrifice Holy enough for the sins of mankind who defeated death that we may have the hope of everlasting life! Paul is not only full of your verses but also full of admonition that salvation through grace doesn't mean a free ride for everybody. The version I read was that after human sacrifice in the Hinnom valley ceased, it was then used as a rubbish dump. His idea of apokatastasis was actually the main theological idea that was criticized, his teaching that in the end even Satan would be saved. The gulf represents the uncrossable separation it is not meant to keep the saved from going over there because they have no reason to do so, as they are with God and His people. I have no clue what v.15 you are talking about so you can spare us that. En contraire. It is also the location where bodies of executed criminals, or individuals denied a proper burial, would be dumped. Uhh no. Therefore, this valley, this Gehenna, was a detestable place to God's people. Neovia group's primary competitors include Hi-Pro Feeds, NUTRI Feeds, Purina Animal Nutrition LLC and 8 more. garbage heap, junk heap, junk pile, refuse heap . Though I vehemently disagree with you, I do not think your view stems from bad motives. Gehenna -- the Valley of Hinnom -- was indeed a valley outside Jerusalem. What church are you talking about? Lambs? It is a widespread misconception by twisting around this or that word in the bible, you suddenly can change the content of the Christian faith. The purpose is to build your discernment when people say bibley things, and not let evangelical historical sound bites lead you to repeat them. valleys of the sons of Hinnom. Calling God "The God of the ages" (aions) is stating a fact, God is God over the ages. Click the card to flip . And again, the worms and fire are figurative the real "punishment" (actually not so much a punishment but the consquence of one's decision) is having missed the last opportunity to be part of God's kingdom. The fire never went out. Unless otherwise noted, the posts are written by Todd Bolen, PhD, Professor of Biblical Studies at The Masters University. Your quiet deliberations and considerations are refreshing and leave me with hope and joy, is this not the work of the Ekklesia? "Everlasting is only aionios in Greek, so that everlasting hell becomes only age-during garbage dump". There is no corresponding situation for punishment having it's opposite destroyed thus allowing it to continue outside of time. Who is ignoring the context? When death is destroyed the only thing left is life. If it had been one, we would expect to find evidence. This is the third entry in a three-part series deconstructing popular illustrations that pastors give their congregations, all of which might sound good or spiritual, but do not correspond to history or reality. [.] Still, that's no basis for any claims about how eternal does not mean eternal or how undying fire/worms suddenly mean dying-only-later fire/worms. 'Gehenna is a repugnant place, into which filth and cadavers are thrown, and in which fires perpetually burn in order to consume the filth and bones; on which account, by analogy, the judgement of the wicked is called 'Gehenna.'' [Worms and fire normally die and go out (no need for nitpicking about how going out is not being quenched) this is why Jesus raises the point that these worms and this fire (which is obviously figurative language) do NOT DIE and do NOT GO OUT. As for the lost, per words of Jesus and apostles, they will die (wages of sin)/be destroyed/perish. Add to that the teaching of the church since the earliest days. "After the ages, there will be no need to describe Him to anyone because all will know Him fully, just as they also are known by Him now.". ELeeMacFall 6 yr. ago And he talks about those going this way because that is what the rich man asks for, for someone in heaven to come and alleviate his suffering. 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